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Discussion Forum - LDWA ideas forum - Route Descriptions - downloadable in advance?

Author: Carl Scragg
Posted: Wed 10th Aug 2016, 10:46
Joined: 2016
Local Group: South Pennine
can anyone tell what software you need to download the route/grids downloads or possibly supply a link
cheers Carl
Author: Nicky Wood
Posted: Tue 11th Aug 2009, 21:53
Joined: 1993
Local Group: Lakeland
I think this has been a very interesting discussion over the last few months. Personally I tend to agree with the idea of making route descriptions available in advance to aid planning, size of font issues and general awareness of the route to help people plot the route on their maps etc.

Regarding size of font, the Plain English Socieity recommends Ariel size 12 as being a really good sized font for the average reader (but like many of you, that seems to be starting to look a bit small to me).
So maybe if folks can use that size on route descriptions it will help a bit too.

I am currently looking for topics for the Local Group Reps meeting which will be held in early November, and I will raise the main points of this discussion at that meeting and if it is felt any changes need to be made to the guidelines that will be a good time to agree them as several National Committee members will be present.
Posted: Mon 10th Aug 2009, 18:22
Joined: 1986
I totally agree with last the post and I note that nobody has objected to it so it does question how appropriate and relevant the current guidelines are.

Obviously routes for a one-off event that is allowed access over private land for that day only should not be published.
Posted: Sat 21st Feb 2009, 23:32
Joined: 1972
I don’t see any good reason for not putting challenge walk routes on the Internet. Public rights of way are exactly that; PUBLIC. They are in the public domain because they are shown on Ordnance Survey Maps. Public rights of way are parts of the Queen's highway as are tarmac roads. Would you not give guidance on the Net on how to get to the event centre?

There are walking guides published by many organisations available over the counter in book shops, stationers and garages. Government departments and local Councils, and Quangos publish route descriptions to Local and National Trails and a lot of public money has been spent waymarking and making them accessible so why should they not be used? We put our Cant Canolbarth route on the Net without any adverse comment. Why is the Internet different from the printed media? Of course if permission has been sought for a particular section then that should not be published.
Author: David W Street
Posted: Fri 20th Feb 2009, 18:16
Joined: 1980
Local Group: Bristol & West
Those are exactly the reasons why I chose not to put our group's challenge walk descriptions on the internet. I feel that they are still valid today. Certainly in our more rural area we rely on the good will of landowners. Even those with public rights of way across their land ( sometimes gardens) have a right to be considered when directing people to use that route. Having negotiated a route I would feel an obligation not to make it generally available at any time. I can see scope for a more relaxed attitude in the Dales or the Scottish Highlands.
Author: Ken Falconer
Posted: Wed 11th Feb 2009, 18:13
Joined: 1983
Local Group: Heart of Scotland
Dave, I have to confess that I am responsible for that sentence (and indeed for most of the rest of the 2000 Guidelines for Events), though many others were consulted. The thinking was that event route descriptions are intended for use on a specific occasion, in particular routes often use private land by special arrangement for the day only. Thus it was felt best not to leave such descriptions lying around the internet and risk others following the route on other occasions. Moreover, putting something into the public domain assumes a greater level of responsibility (and, at least theoretically, possible liability) than something with restricted circulation.
However, the internet is very different now from what it was 9 years ago, so perhaps this could do with rethinking.
Author: David W Street
Posted: Mon 9th Feb 2009, 22:16
Joined: 1980
Local Group: Bristol & West
Tony Willey mentioned the Guidelines for Events in an earlier post to this forum. Contained in that very useful tome I found the following - "Some organisers provide an electronic version of the description on request, either for those providing a disc or by e-mail. However, this should only be available to those entering the event, and the description should not be published on the Internet." Unfortunately it does not give a reason for this advice, but obviously some thought has previously been put into this matter. Perhaps this publication should be essential reading for webmasters as well as event organisers.
Author: Garfield & Helen Southall
Posted: Tue 27th Jan 2009, 21:20
Joined: 1991
Local Group: Merseystride
In response to Lilian's posting, I think many download the route and have a look before deciding to enter or not. Others will intend to and then something else will crop up to prevent them entering.
I don't think very many will be downloading routes so they can do them on their own - can't see the point myself. No checkpoints and, more importantly, no cake!! (Garfield)
Author: David W Street
Posted: Tue 27th Jan 2009, 16:34
Joined: 1980
Local Group: Bristol & West
Anytime walkers are the problem if, when like us, you have on the day permission to use a particular path. It is just as easy to send out the route descriptions by email to those who have entered. Yes I know they can copy it, pass it on etc but at least I have done my best to keep faith with the landowners. That ensures we are welcome back next year. Publishing on a website means you have no idea who is using the material.
Author: Alan Greenwood
Posted: Sun 13th Jan 2008, 8:52
Joined: 1998
Local Group: Calderdale
I take a different view to Lillian. The countryside is free and if any route that I have designed adds to the enjoyment of individuals then I am well pleased. After all those individuals may pass the word onto others or may even do the event themselves. What entrants pay for are the facilities, the food and the organisation as well as a good route.
Posted: Wed 9th Jan 2008, 20:13
Joined: 1973
Just read the thread about route description available on- line. Morecambe Bay and Bowland have been doing this for all their events since the Lakeland 100 in 2002. We have an Ordnance survey licence and provide maps and tracklogs.
We did realise though that because we can track numbers downloaded that there have been up to double the number downloaded to number of entries. We do feel it is a bit unfair if people take advantage and download them and use them as an anytime challenge. When checking routes we have actually encountered people doing just that!
Author: Ian Koszalinski
Posted: Fri 30th Nov 2007, 9:21
Joined: 2004
Local Group: High Peak
you can get route descriptions, maps etc from this site which i think has been mentioned on this site before
although if the route is changed every year this will be of no help, and not all of the walks mentioned on this site has a route description, but well worth taking a look
Author: Alan Greenwood
Posted: Thu 1st Nov 2007, 22:26
Joined: 1998
Local Group: Calderdale
You will find every conceivable item you might wish to know about for an event on the website for 'The Hebden' due to be held on Saturday 5th January 2008. Anyone coming up with a worthwhile additional idea for inclusion will receive a free bacon butty (teacake for those living outside Yorkshire) at the start.
Website address
Author: Carol Coyne
Posted: Thu 16th Aug 2007, 12:26
Joined: 2004
Local Group: Surrey
I'm really in favour in making available on web-site in advance. It actually encourages me to enter if I have the comfort of planning with a map beforehand.
Author: Tony Willey
Posted: Tue 14th Aug 2007, 10:17
Joined: 1989
Local Group: Lakeland
Yes, there is such a list. "Guidelines for Events" contains guidelines and suggestions for all aspects of event organisation, and can be viewed on this website. It is in "The Library" ,currently accessible only from the Home page. The Guidelines are in the process of being revised and an updated version will be on the website in the next week or two.
However, these are guidelines not instructions, and it is up to individual organisers to decide on their policy. In the light of the difficulty some organisers are experiencing with lateness of entries (See thread under "Events") , it may well be a good idea to e-mail or post route instructions to individual entrants as an incentive to early entry, rather than have them openly available on a group or event website.
Posted: Tue 14th Aug 2007, 8:17
Joined: 1986
Thanks for all the replies.

I think that this can be summarised by all being broadly in favour of a (limited time) download of the route description being made available for download in advance wherever possible.

The format is debatable but the principal seems sound. So how does this get moved forward. It would seem to me to a reasonable suggestion for those organising group events. I am sure there is a list with many other suggestions for organisers on. Can this be added?
Author: Ian Koszalinski
Posted: Wed 8th Aug 2007, 22:57
Joined: 2004
Local Group: High Peak
oops slight mistake open office will not open pdf files but will save and export in pdf format so you can write in open office writer and save as a pdf file, or word file
Author: Ian Koszalinski
Posted: Wed 8th Aug 2007, 20:50
Joined: 2004
Local Group: High Peak
open office is free and will open many files including word and pdf it will also save in any format, the application is large tho, but with todays HDs thats no problem
Author: Chris Chorley
Posted: Wed 8th Aug 2007, 12:19
Joined: 1982
Local Group: Norfolk & Suffolk
The other advantage of PDF comes if you don't use Word to produce the original, something which I didn't do until recently. I also use it out of habit, as I don't produce certificate artwork etc using Word, but I can send off a PDF to get them printed. Most engineering data sheets and academic papers are only available as PDF; the advantage is that you know that (usually...) others will be able to view/print exactly the same document as you created. Different versions of Word, odd templates, headers and footers have been known to cause odd pagination problems (yes, it *is* normally ok to exchange Word docs these days). So I prefer to give people PDF route descriptions as I know that para 2 on page 3 is correct, and it hasn't ended up on the next page... I also (in common with some other event organisers) go to the trouble of putting checkpoints at the bottom of a page, so that you turn over the page at a checkpoint; I do see the need for some people to increase font size but it feels like a waste of time taking care in the original layout ;-(
Author: Philip Powell
Posted: Wed 8th Aug 2007, 7:59
Joined: 1981
Local Group: Northumbria
pdf is a universal format so anyone can download a free reader for it - I use Foxit as it is only a fraction of the size of Acrobat. Although word is almost ubiquitous, not everyone has it - but there again, a free reader may be downloaded.

The disadvantage from the user's pov is that unless they have a pdf editor, they cannot reformat to the font/size they might prefer.

One may download and install a free program such as PrimoPDF which acts as a dummy printer. Create your document as usual and when you come to print, scroll through the printer options and select PrimoPDF rather than your default - that then creates and saves [but doesn't actually print] your document as a pdf.
Author: Tony Deall
Posted: Tue 7th Aug 2007, 23:11
Joined: 1985
Local Group: Cumbria
It is now possible to add Downloads on the local group web site template and we have put on an 'Anytime' route description for the Three Rings. I can't see any objection to putting the RD's on before our Event next year and will almost certainly do that.
Can anyone explain the advantages of using pdf rather than word files - and how do you do it ?!
Author: Catharine Gregory
Posted: Tue 7th Aug 2007, 16:39
Joined: 2007
Local Group: Bristol & West
I think most event organisers would happily email you a copy in advance of the walk (at least, that's my experience). I think some are a bit reluctant to put them on a website for anyone to see, perhaps in case of last-minute changes or to prevent people who haven't signed up to the event from seeing a copy.

Author: Julian Brown
Posted: Tue 7th Aug 2007, 11:07
Joined: 1998
Local Group: Staffordshire
.... and if all that wasn't enough Chris had a navigating dog available for a very reasonable fee.
Author: Chris Chorley
Posted: Mon 6th Aug 2007, 20:16
Joined: 1982
Local Group: Norfolk & Suffolk
The route description for the Poppyline Fifty was made available in this way, but just to those who had provided their email address when entering the event. The acknowledgement email included a link (to an otherwise unlinked page). For those who said they didn't like pdf (as they wanted to edit things and use a larger font) I emailed a Word copy on request. Next time I will provide pdf, Word and text all at the same time as downloads. Might also provide electronic mapping/GPS files (available this year on special request !)
Author: Philip Powell
Posted: Mon 6th Aug 2007, 20:07
Joined: 1981
Local Group: Northumbria
Quite agree.

The 3 route descriptions for the DDC were made available on the website to allow entrants to download and print out at a size to suit them.

They were removed afterwards as there is no guarantee that the route will be exactly as described in the future.
Posted: Mon 6th Aug 2007, 19:51
Joined: 1986
No, this isn't a discussion on how detailed they should be but more on their availability.

If a route description has been written and will be made available, either by being sent out with walk number or issued on the day, can it also be made available on the web in advance.

I, and I am sure there are many others, need reading glasses. If I can download a description beforehand, I can then print it off using a larger font which then means I do not need to keep putting my glasses on and off.

Yes, I know there are lots of weak points in that argument, how do you read the map, if you are walking how much inconvenience is that etc etc. However it seems to me that if a group have a web-site, and most do, how hard can it be to post the route online. If necessary it can be removed after the event



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