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Discussion Forum - Events - To Clip or not to Clip


Author: David Morgan
Posted: Tue 30th Aug 2011, 19:13
Joined: 1994
Local Group: South Wales
Author: Dr. John Batham
Posted: Tue 30th Aug 2011, 19:02
Joined: 2007
Local Group: East Yorkshire
I suggest we have cctv at each checkpoint, with electronic ankle manacles if the former doesn't work.
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Sat 27th Aug 2011, 21:55
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
to add to this post- we at checkpoint one on Smugglers Trod today found out we were missing one person. He definitately was not clipped/number not cut off from his tally card and not recorded on the tally board. Raynet confirmed it- he was late starting off.

So a clip could be regarded as a double check to a voice check. We cut off the number/checkpoint at the checkpoint (same as clipping) and record on a tallyboard from a voice call.

Where possible missing persons are concerned a double even triple check is good- with large numbers of people involved in the event especialy! With peoples' lives at risk it will be better to play safe even in the "safest" appearing events.That way we can cover ourselves as an organisation.
Author: Tony Deall
Posted: Thu 25th Aug 2011, 23:02
Joined: 1985
Local Group: Cumbria
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Wed 24th Aug 2011, 21:36
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
Well I must still be John's good books, ( not through lack of trying) he's just e-mailed me 2 jokes. And yes John I am that bloke sat on the porch, but I got there too early in life. :-)





ian.
Author: Dr. John Batham
Posted: Sun 21st Aug 2011, 14:26
Joined: 2007
Local Group: East Yorkshire
Re tally clips again. Organisers only have to issue a plastic id card with the entrants number, bit of string, around the neck or tied up appropriately. Entrant shows id card at checkpoints, checkpoint folks write down number, no need to clip anything, reduce checkpoint manning; job done. For the life of me, why clip when no one checks a clipped card. Perhaps I'm missing something here.
Author: Dr. John Batham
Posted: Sun 21st Aug 2011, 14:19
Joined: 2007
Local Group: East Yorkshire
John King - I thought a dibber was a garden implement!

Ian - you betray your Yorkshire roots by sweeping as a way to escape walk fees. Now I know how you afforded those Primark socks
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Wed 17th Aug 2011, 20:56
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
In answer John King's post.

Yes in my opinion that is the way forward and I seem to remember using them once, maybe on a hundred but can't remember now.

ian.
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Wed 17th Aug 2011, 20:49
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
John wants to know why we (LDWA) clips tallies.

Well John its quite easy really, If runner and walkers where given numbers most would just walk passed the checkpoint staff and shout their number out and continue on their way. How will the checkpoint staff know it's the right number without looking at it. So by clipping it, the tally has to be handed over to be clipped and the number can then be checked and recorded.

Re sweep team dashing off in all directions.

Some sweep members I've seen in the past have trouble keeping up with the back markers and in no fit state to dash anywhere.(ho no was that a foot in mouth moment)

If someone is missing from one checkpoint the experienced sweeper will know not to panic and dash off anywhere. Sweepers will only get mildly concerned if the walker misses two checkpoints.

After all John don't we only sweep walks so we get to do the walk for nowt. ;-) ( That's two foot in mouth comments in one post)

ian.
Author: John King
Posted: Wed 17th Aug 2011, 20:37
Joined: 2002
I would suggest Ditching Tally Cards in favour of DIBBERS that way ther is little chance of missing out self clips etc and using any old clip, plus using the right equipment would mean the organisers would know the where abouts of all entrants and this would aid safety and logistical considerations at checkpoints.

I don`t know but it is possible that several folk already have there own dibber therefore a unique number that identifies them and remains the same where ever the dibber is used this again would aid logistics.

Again I don`t know but if the LDWA was to adopt dibbers at C/Ps then it may be possible to organise a group buy at discounted prices for people that prefer to own there own dibber rather than pay a small rental for each event they do.

Just a thought ;-)
Author: Dr. John Batham
Posted: Wed 17th Aug 2011, 20:20
Joined: 2007
Local Group: East Yorkshire
Eileen, you jogged my memory about my first wife, also named Eileen. A Roman Catholic, she also had an issue about condoms - spooky revisitations!
Author: Dr. John Batham
Posted: Wed 17th Aug 2011, 20:00
Joined: 2007
Local Group: East Yorkshire
I have to say I am confused on how condoms got into this post. Eileen you must elaborate, Personally I haven't needed them for years after being doctored. But since I can only score with grannies anyway, it doesn't make a fat lot of difference.

If we have a walks number, ie ID card I cant see why we have clips as nobody checks them out. If anyone is missing anyway, do the sweepers dash off in all directions to find them?
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Wed 17th Aug 2011, 18:15
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
" Continual fence around these issues of health and safety"

Being a adult I know what I'm letting myself in for when I enter a walk. If it's a normal walk, say under 30 miles I can't see the point in carrying the kitchen sink with me. If it's a longer walk then yes I would take a food with me.

Years ago when I was out walking every weekend I was amazed at how few of our (LDWA) members could read a map, or was it a case of, I'm to lazy to get it out of my rucksack when it's much easier to follow the one in front. I can tell you a few have come unstuck when following me in the dark or mist. The one's that really got on my nerves where the one's that would walk 10 or so yards at back of me so letting me do all the map reading. More then once I've left them in the pitch black in a middle of a wood looking for me. I didn't wear a black hooded top for nothing when out walking at night.

Until an LDWA group has the balls to clamp down and pull out everybody who fails a kit check, walkers / runners will continue to skimp on the gear they carry.

But let me add. At work it's Health and Safety MAD. I go walking for fun, I'm a bloody adult, I'm responsible for my own safety when doing a walk. I don't want to be told that I might trip up, or if it rains I'll get wet and havens above I don't what telling to look out for cars when crossing a road.

All these people who hide behind the health and safety issue all the time, have maybe forget how sometime's it can be fun to take risks.

ian.
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Tue 16th Aug 2011, 23:35
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
No, eviewers look elsewhere I know! Nite nite.
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Tue 16th Aug 2011, 23:30
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
ha! But doesn't it keep the eviewers viewing!
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Tue 16th Aug 2011, 23:19
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
We'll have to stop meeting like this.

Nite Nite, Eileen Greenwood.
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Tue 16th Aug 2011, 23:18
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
Nite nite Ian Sykes.
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Tue 16th Aug 2011, 23:17
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
Mind you a few condoms don't weight much, That is until I looked into my now ex army boyfriend's rucksack and saw his condom cache at a 1000 or so! (i didn'tsee how many were used).

Enough said on here by me I think!
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Tue 16th Aug 2011, 23:14
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
" But make sure the organising event say so in advance"

The Cleveland Group did so, more then once. But still a few did not bother to obey the rules. You will always get people who don't believe the rule's apply to them.

Off to bed

ian.
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Tue 16th Aug 2011, 23:05
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
yes a double decker for sure! But make sure the organising event say so in advance. I always carry what I need on events except bivvy bags. Not condoms of course- just the army carry those.
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Tue 16th Aug 2011, 22:58
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
Ermm clip prinks. prink clips. prick clips.. ouch?? That would stop them!

when do I prink or crip.....
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Tue 16th Aug 2011, 22:56
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
The White Peak 100 was a LDWA event.

Yes you must keep a record of the walkers going round the event, that is why you have a tally and get clipped and recorded on tick sheets at checkpoints.

If you did not have to be clipped at checkpoints then some people would miss then out, so they would be no record of them being there.

Re Kit Checks. I can remember when Wheeldale Tandem clamped down on it. They pulled around 10 out at Stape but that was just a one off.
If your going to enforce the kit check then do it. Check everybody's kit half way round and pull out every body that fails. But make sure you have a bus there to bring everybody back that dose fail.

ian.
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Tue 16th Aug 2011, 22:51
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
I'll hop off my box now to see if any rugby players in the bothy...
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Tue 16th Aug 2011, 22:45
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
And what kit is carried in case of a broken ankle etc. Walkers and runners included- it is easy to do at any age especially in winter icy conditions.
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Tue 16th Aug 2011, 22:40
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
The Fellsman isn't an Ldwa challenge event, nor is the White peak.

I understand what John is about. It isn't about the time of eventeers but more about their safety for LDWA events whether runners or walkers. We need to know where they/when rather than what speed they are going at?
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Tue 16th Aug 2011, 22:33
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
But yes John. You have a point, we have been ignoring it as it's best to ignore so far.

But with more and more runners joining then maybe safety with kits checks is a point to re look at?

As for tally cards,until speeds of walks/runs need checking/verifying- then why bother?
Author: Ian Sykes
Posted: Tue 16th Aug 2011, 22:32
Joined: 1986
Local Group: East Yorkshire
Can we take it that John as never done the Fellsman. And I can remember a few people on the White Peak 100 being sent back around 2 miles to a self clip that they had missed.

ian.
Author: Eileen Greenwood
Posted: Tue 16th Aug 2011, 22:26
Joined: 2002
Local Group: Yorkshire Coast
well, on Smugglers Trod- we have to actually snip off the checkpoint tally with scissors! How many times have we nearly snipped off our fingers or some other body parts of ours or theirs! Especially with cold numb fingers even in summer in ealry morning with cold east wind?

But then we have the tally to check with. And the missing ones either are missing or we missed 'em!

Until the next checkpoint.
Author: Dr. John Batham
Posted: Tue 16th Aug 2011, 20:42
Joined: 2007
Local Group: East Yorkshire
I was going to put this topic in my next column as Local Groups Sec in Strider but what the hell, here we go...........

How many tally cards are checked for the requisite clip pricks on a Challenge? Assume, say eight checkpoints and what, 250 entrants on average on a Challenge, that's 2000 little boxes to check off for the different impressions. No organisers can possibly scan all these cards, it's Alice in Wonderland stuff.

If one misses a self clip, the subsequent clippers can be used to clip one that is missed because no-one can possibly check all those individual pricks. So, why have anything other than an id card to tick off at the checkpoint to ensure that the entrant is safe and secure ? If anyone wishes to cheat, they are only fooling themselves.

Similarly, how many Challenges now have kit checks? I can recall the Phoenix in the North, any in other regions? I recently did a Challenge on which several folks didn't even have a sack so no waterproofs, no rations etc. Then, the perennial question of runners and their minimalist approach to "safety and security". I find it fascinating how we (individually, not as a body or association) continually fence around these issues of health and safety.

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